作者 主题: An old fart's pointers of making TRPGs for other people  (阅读 402 次)

副标题: A study of the practical

离线 Mounrou

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An old fart's pointers of making TRPGs for other people
« 于: 2020-04-22, 周三 07:50:17 »
I am talking about my own various failures here. Stuffs that I either don't do but should, or tried and failed over the times.

If you're making up stuffs just for your own, then you have no need to read this.

But if you ever want to try to have anyone other than you alone to get your stuffs, take a look.

Or not. It ain't that big a deal, and I don't actually cared that much I guess. v=3=v



(Note to self: Youdao can be a better translator than Baidu sometimes.)

=====================================================================

A few pointers when you are trying to have other people get into your work:
(ie. Getting so sick of people using the "it's for my own use" excuses when they got their craps pointed out.)


1. Assume the readers are lazy idiots who would expect you to do all the works for them.

劇透 -   :
No, of course they ain't. It's just a practical application of "mob intelligence" in terms of product design:

Mob Intelligence = “The intelligence of that creature known as a crowd is the square root of the number of people in it.”
User Friendliness = "The standard ability of an audience's capability of understanding your product, should be the dumbest, least interested person in it."

This is not about looking down on people, this is about EASE of access: If the single person who's the worst at getting it can still get it, then by logic it should be a lot easier for others to understand it as well. Therefore you should designed FOR that level of competence, not how YOU can understand it. (As it's YOUR idea, it should be impossible for YOU to not get it, hence that also means YOU'RE NOT a good judge at all for whether people would get it or not.)

Plus, with everybody good at different things, no matter how you design a thing, some people would bound to have problems in different aspects of your work regardless. That's when you streamline and change wordings and make thing fit to their specs, as you're doing it to make it work for them.

In short: Your own "Easy/Common" had nothing to do with others' "Easy/Common" at all. Always remember that when you are making stuffs for other people, whatever it is and whoever they are.

(Obviously, telling people what they should do, in a completely different language from what they usually use, isn't the best idea for example. v=_=v )



2. It's always your fault, NO. MATTER. WHAT.

劇透 -   :
Many people who tried to create a TRPG system, seems to expect a lot of things:
-A way to express themselves, or something akin to art.
-A way to shared what they imagine to be "the things they liked the most in TRPG"
-A way to show off their "talents" or knowledge.
-A way to do "better" than what we have right now.
-A way to be "in a group".
-A way to try to earn some bucks.
-A way to past the time.
-A way to get new ideas.
-A way to get reviews/opinions.
-Another way to "play" a TRPG.

That is what they THINK they're doing.

What TRPG is, to anyone except for the creators:
-A product that is good to have, but at the end of the day completely unnecessary.

What they're actually doing, when they release their thing out in the open:
-They are trying to make people get into a new product they created.

The ultimate thing about TRPG is that:
-Because it is a product with a goal of group play, If you cannot get people to play it, then it is completely worthless in marco scope of things.
(For solo TRPGs, aside for the "group" thing, is the same.)

Again, TRPG is a PRODUCT.

But most of the people who release new systems willy-nilly, don't think of it as such.

Of course, if you TRULY are doing it for YOURSELF, and really, truly, not-just-because-other-people-call-your-stuffs-sucked-so-you-try-to-defend-yourself-ly JUST FOR YOUR OWN SINGLE ENTERTAINMENT, then of course you can ignore all that.
But then you don't need to read this whole thing at all.
And you really shouldn't even try to release it out to the public, since you don't feel the need to care about the public. v=w=v
(To release something whatever it may be, you must care for your target audience as well. Can't just have one and ignore the other.)

So have you ever tried to sell a product?
Or have you ever had people tried to sell you a product?

It's hard. It's really hard.

Take any ad you see online:
>It must be "good looking" for the target it aimed at.
>It must be "clear" for the target it aimed at.
>It must be "simple" for the target it aimed at.
>It must be "easily accessible" for the target it aimed at.
>It must makes the target it aimed at "wanted it."
>>>And 600 thousand things more.
The product could be the worst thing that ever came out from the other side of little Kim's butt, but the ad must convince the customers to want it nonetheless.

Stuffs like DnD/CoC might not seemed that simple or easy for people not used to TRPG. - And that's exactly why TRPG is a very niche hobby. - But for the targeted audience, it is. And they know their targets.

Or take the comparison of a high-end, 4/5-digit price fashion store clerk:

Your customers don't actually need your merch. If its clothes they want, there's a 2nd-hand store around the corner. Above that there's old regular mass-produce clothes, UNIQLOs, cheap department stores.

But you'd starve to death if they don't buy from you.

So you MUST try to sell your stuffs, even if, efficiently speaking, all other products are superior to yours in every way.
And you really CAN'T pick your customers.
YOU are trying to get THEM to do the things YOU wanted,
THEY have the leverage,
YOU have nothing but a wish.
They might be street bums who smell like 2 weeks old fish under the August sun, but if they're paying then you have to treat them like bosses.

And no, at the end of the day, most people are just gonna browse.


This is it, YOU might think you're doing something else, or give yourself 10001 excuses to say otherwise.

But, FUNCTIONALLY SPEAKING, your action is just "you trying to get somebody else to acquire your thing."

YOU. ARE. TRYING. TO. SELL. STUFFS. Even if money might not factor into it.

For an easy way to start:
1. NEVER SAY NO. "Customers are always right", even if said customer is a ret_rd piece of sh_t. You say "yes, but..." like a good GM trying to keep a game going.

2. After you say "yes, but..." ACTUALLY LOOK AT IT FROM THEIR ANGLES FOR ONCE. 10% chance you are completely right, but since its a thing you try to sell to others, in many cases you do indeed find things you can at least tweaked slightly or put in different ways. ("yes, but..." and keep doing things your own way regardless, makes people feel you're ignoring them. In some cases that can be worse than NO.)

3. If the suggestion really have no merit, learn to drop it. Things like that do happen, but a good way to tell would be "if most everyone's saying the same thing, then there probably is something wrong".

4. Learn to actually admit that you ain't as smart as you think you are (Hint: ALL of us ain't). Cause people really don't suddenly gang up on people for no good reason at all, and usually NOT for a reason that sooth yourself the most. At the end of the day, none of us are just that important to have the whole internet war on us. - Though most of us do have enough self-importance to think we are.
Well, we ain't. Period. v=3=v



3) Common weird ways people try to sell their craps, and why they're bad for you:

劇透 -   :
I)The newest thing when the designer try to diss DnD/CoC/PF/etc and say their stuffs are vastly superior.

---You pretty much just called most of your potential customers stupid for liking DnD/CoC/PF/etc. Unless they're seriously-M, you just gave them a really good reason to hate you personally.

---You can have the newest, most advance thing in the world, BUT YOUR AUDIENCE AIN'T LOOKING FOR NEW THINGS, they mostly want more streamline version of the old, with 1/2 of them just gonna tweak it themselves regardless.


II)Saying your high-school calculus system is easy.

---You are projecting your own awareness over those of the general public. The "appearance" of easy alone might be far more important then it actually being easy. You need to figure out "how" people look at things first, and then the "hook" to pull them in, and the way to keep them hooked in. Anything beyond basic plus/minus by itself turns people off just by the looks of them.

---Lots of the conventions of TRPG, even if they look dumb, are there for a reason. Trying to come up with "better ways" without trying to understand WHY conventions existed, means that your "better ways" ain't. (Like, if I'm trying to create a completely free-form combat free of dice, I'd remove as much rules as possible instead of further diverting everything into micro-seconds and mass... Waitaminute, there's RISUS and WUSHU and FATE and AW already...)

---This being an age of computers, doesn't mean TRPG MUST adapt to it. By current standard a good system MUST AT LEAST BE doable by head alone. This might change in another 20 years, but we ain't 20 years in the future, so basing your system on a 20-years-later-standard, means you might as well hide it for 20 more years cause nobody wants it NOW.



III)Saying your multi-multiple-cross-referenced-table-needed system is "fast".

---The standard for "fast" is 5-10 seconds, from the point you let go of the dice to you getting a completed answer. 10 seconds is frankly slow enough already, you would want that to be less than 7.5s if possible.
One player would have 1-3 sets of rolls, and a GM would usually have player*sets of rolls.
So a 4-player+GM game would have 8-24sets of rolls in one round.
The players and GM roll the dice at the same time, and we assume the players are competent/trustworthy enough to do their own calculations, so the time's actually 4-12 sets
with a median optimal time of 8*7.5=60 seconds, for one set of rolls. And then add another minute or less for resolutions.
1 minutes/round of 4 people, or 15s/ppl/round. Not including RPs and discussions.
Of course, since we ain't robots, usually it would be slower, with chit-chats in between and various other stuffs.
So, there's space for variation of course, and some more-used rules actually failed quite bad here, though their fans loved them nonetheless.

But we are looking at "speed of rolls" alone.
So can you beat 15 seconds? You ain't fast if you can't.

But, again, it really doesn't matter whether YOU can or cannot.
CAN SOMEBODY ELSE BEATS 15 SECONDS WITH YOUR THING?
If THEY cannot, then YOU ain't fast.

---Then again, HAVE YOU EVEN ROLLED THE 100-TRIES-TEST YET? Or worse, HAVE YOU EVER ROLLED EVEN ONCE?



IV)Saying your mega-variable combat mechanic is "realistic"

---Ahh, realism.
"The whole place smell like sh_t, your armor is heavy, your weapon is heavy, you are so scared you already smell the poop you wished you took this morning in your pants, your heart is beating at 170 a minute, you are getting tunnel vision from all the fright in your head, you can't hear a thing when you are so completely twisted up inside, you don't wanna be here, you wanna go home.
You've been in this freaking hole, under the baking sun, for 3 days straight.
And then you died when someone shot you through the head from the side."

WE DON'T F_CKING WANT REALISM. WE WANT TO BE CONAN THE BARBARIAN(OR RED SONJA.) We want to be Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Donny Yen, Chuck Norris, Mr. T, Sylvester Stallone, Arnold Schwarzenegger, The Rock, Tony Jaa, Iko Uwais... Crap, even Bruce Li or JCVD would do. (Not Steven Segal though. NO. If you wanna be Steven 7th-Dan Segal than you've probably had too many Goji Berry juice. =_=)

Go F_ucking model Ong Bak and stop wasting our time.



V)Putting ads out into every single RPG-forums, even if they are completely unrelated to your system.

---That's called SPAM. And strangely enough... It might work somehow. The idea of SPAM is if only 0.001% of the people who see it will be interested, then you expand your customer group from 100 to 10000000, so that 1000000*0.001% will still get you 10 customers, even if you piss off 9999990 people in the way.

But still, it's gonna piss off 9999990 people, and in an enclosed environment of a niche hobby, that pretty much means people are going to STAY PISSED, which is bad for long term businesses since bad reps are more infectious than good ones.



4) TRPG is an art, designing TRPG for common use isn't

劇透 -   :
>You are a product designer, not some high-brow artist.
>You don't get to say people who don't like your stuffs don't get it; You don't understand how to make them want it in the first place.
>You don't get to diss on the products everybody are using in the market; They have the audience, you have jack sh_t. (Plus this isn't an animal arena where the winner is the head of the pack and there can be only one; Save that biological instinct for... Seriously, I don't think most places outside of the actual animal kingdom follow that rule anymore.)
>You don't get to say your things are easy when people don't get it; If people don't find it easy, the only reason is you're not trying hard enough.
>You don't get to say what's simple; You must learn what simple is from your audience.
>You don't get to call out on people; It's always you who gets called out, since it's YOUR THING.

It ain't fair, but buyer/seller relation on unnecessary craps are ALWAYS unfair.

If you wanna be artsy-fartsy, painting might be a better hobby for you, since one of the literal translations of artsy farts is "artistic-like people who behave like farts", it'd be a great fit.

Finally, a quote from the movie Speed Racer:
引用
"But no matter how well you drive, you won't win, you won't place. I guarantee you right now that you won't even finish the race!"

Whatever.
« 上次编辑: 2020-04-22, 周三 16:55:07 由 Mounrou »
我用不來中文輸入法,所以我只能手寫中文字
在電腦上打中文字相比起英文而言大概要花我10倍的時間,而且會累死我。 >3< (Which has no point when people just skip it anyhow.)
所以,除非這事情非常非常重要,否則我一般只會用英文。
如果你看不懂英文,非常重要時我會盡可能嘗試去打中文。 -w-b
( Except Grammar Nazis cause, you know, THEY'RE RELATED TO NAZIS!!! And pretty impolite to boot too. =_+\ )

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Re: An old fart's pointers of making TRPGs for other people
« 回帖 #1 于: 2020-04-22, 周三 14:12:45 »
Appreciation for that valuable advice. Clearly I could imagine who are you targeting. I have tried multiple times for different system and the "so-called calculus" is not meant to show off or scare anyone, that is the rule itself, which means anyone using the rule does not need to understand any of them, but it would be abstract to explain without them.

It is my fault that I didn't contain graphes of these stupid functions in the rule, considering adding them. Without posting it here, I won't even think about it, so that is one lesson I learned from people's complaints. I am listening to any valuable ideas. If I did not receive any negative voices that will be unreal.

I only want to bring the pleasure of designing to every player, allow them to design and control their own unique skills.

Apologize for any confusion, but to be honest, I have played this in like over ten campaigns? For sure at first, players are against these stupid functions, but we are able to enjoy it without getting into a calculator. They like it, and they love building their own skills, races.

So last month I have talked to they said, "Hey, want to publish?", and I got cheers from them. One of them said, "Hey, I want to add some of my idea of the civilization levels into it", or like "how about making the rule more understandable?" Right after weeks of changes, we have finished this version, when I hand over this to my player and asked: "Any confusion?" They said: "I think they are easy to understand."

All of them, who have tried like 3 minutes of battle testing, will all able to identify that this is an easy-going battle system, and they love to see the RP score I present to them so they would try hard to get their roll play more convincing.

We are having fun with it, and we have debugged for months. The basic idea of the rule came two years ago, with only a light battle system, even two years ago, when we were testing, they like the freedom this rule has given.

I don't mind any negative voices, it would be fantastic if anyone with the thought like "this wouldn't be possible", "TRPG should be easy-going with pen and paper", "master will be tired and players will be confused" to just try because I have been tested for a long long time. I am being responsible for my players, I did not post this stupid function rule to anywhere outside my own group.

I really need to take more time writing this rule to make it understandable, it is still way abstract than a readable Old Man and Sea.

It will get better, I promise, you got my words.
« 上次编辑: 2020-04-22, 周三 14:15:54 由 WhiliMior »

离线 Mounrou

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Re: An old fart's pointers of making TRPGs for other people
« 回帖 #2 于: 2020-04-22, 周三 15:57:01 »
This is actually targeted at about a dozen people I've seen for the past 10 years or so. Still, if you can get something out of it...

Well, its HARD to make things widely receptive... But its not bad to try. Its definitely not a sin to try. (Though I'd have to say you'd have a way to go. Step-by-step examples and actual plays might work, or it could point out problems you guys weren't in the position to see.)

Just try to not be like that other guy we have right now... For all purposes its a pretty good "example" if nothing else. =w=b
我用不來中文輸入法,所以我只能手寫中文字
在電腦上打中文字相比起英文而言大概要花我10倍的時間,而且會累死我。 >3< (Which has no point when people just skip it anyhow.)
所以,除非這事情非常非常重要,否則我一般只會用英文。
如果你看不懂英文,非常重要時我會盡可能嘗試去打中文。 -w-b
( Except Grammar Nazis cause, you know, THEY'RE RELATED TO NAZIS!!! And pretty impolite to boot too. =_+\ )

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Re: An old fart's pointers of making TRPGs for other people
« 回帖 #3 于: 2020-04-22, 周三 16:10:55 »
Can I translate your post into Chinese and move it to other websites? I think many so-called "original rules" authors need some criticism.
(This sentence was translated with Baidu.)

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Re: An old fart's pointers of making TRPGs for other people
« 回帖 #4 于: 2020-04-22, 周三 16:38:40 »
Nope.
我用不來中文輸入法,所以我只能手寫中文字
在電腦上打中文字相比起英文而言大概要花我10倍的時間,而且會累死我。 >3< (Which has no point when people just skip it anyhow.)
所以,除非這事情非常非常重要,否則我一般只會用英文。
如果你看不懂英文,非常重要時我會盡可能嘗試去打中文。 -w-b
( Except Grammar Nazis cause, you know, THEY'RE RELATED TO NAZIS!!! And pretty impolite to boot too. =_+\ )

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Re: An old fart's pointers of making TRPGs for other people
« 回帖 #5 于: 2020-04-22, 周三 16:52:45 »
Nope.
I am sorry for my indulgence

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Re: An old fart's pointers of making TRPGs for other people
« 回帖 #6 于: 2020-05-17, 周日 15:29:18 »
要是有中文就好了.....(虽然我用的是谷歌翻译)
这一次我就不翻译英文直接用中文好了(因为你看得懂...应该)(写机制一时爽,编数值哭晕厕,写文档万念俱灰。)
说正经的,

“Do you guys not have any phones?”计算辅助真的不行?不是我会用到微积分的情况(虽然我的的确确想要二次根号这种操作)....我只是不想学《文明4》那样再把双方的力量换算到1-100的区间里(是的,对于人脑来说这个计算量是不可接受)

不过我认错,我目前的测试是...一个战机单位的一个攻击行为...从简单描述(非语音纯文字)到查表再到生成公式判定结果最后更改表格/修改画图....平均用了7分钟(嗯,最开始的的时候用了40多分钟(因为还有讲解每一种可能性))
....(感谢你指出具有实质性建议的时间-“快速”的标准是5到10秒....我会尽可能优化用时....以及能问一下,一个网团的判定的“快速”是多少时间吗?)
正在写高机动感TRPG中
目前尝试运用在近自由枪骑兵、皇牌空战的空战中
目前的目录导航....规则书肯定要重写
http://45.79.87.129/bbs/index.php?topic=148733.0
https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/688971357

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Re: An old fart's pointers of making TRPGs for other people
« 回帖 #7 于: 2020-05-30, 周六 16:01:25 »
很强,很强,很有道理。
其实开团把PC当成小猫咪就行了,这里用逗猫棒,那里打打闹闹让她咬,给点吃的喝点水,摸摸头然后贴贴,撸猫也要顺毛呀。碳酸汽水10极简轻规则 [nofollow]+其他资源:
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